When I left Google, I figured out that apparently I had stayed at Google longer than 80% of the people who are.

Currently at Google. One specific day where I got corp access revoked for a couple of hours.

This is like a random Tuesday.

So, I was like terrified and like panicked.

I was like, "Oh my gosh, like am I laid off?"

Like I was literally in the office.

Then I just went for a run cuz I couldn't like think properly.

I ran the fastest 5K I've ever run in my life.

But during the run, I felt a little bit of just like contentment and I was like, "Oh okay, you know, if.

This happens, it happens." It was that particular just moment where I was like, "Oh, I don't think leaving Google is the.

End of the world if I do it."

I have been rejected many, many times in my career because I came into university.

With only one high school CS class.

I didn't really know how to code.

I was with a bunch of my friends who had been coding since they were 10.

Obviously felt very intimidated. So, when you've rejected literally hundreds of times, it barely phases me now cuz it only matters that.

You get that one offer. >> So, what was your total compensation at Google when you left?

My base salary was My annual bonus was around.

Total was about.

But I feel like I often.

Think I'm doing worse than I actually am.

If a computer science freshman is listening right now and they're terrified they picked the wrong major, what would you tell them?

If you do like coding, you do like math, you do like building things, go for it.

Being a software engineer, it gives you skills that are beyond just coding.

It gives you critical thinking skills.

If there is a scenario where all of us have to pivot, it's a very versatile skill set.

>> Is software engineering going to be a career in 5 years or are the people listening to this grinding leak code.

For a job that's not going to exist?

Engineers who are unable to.

Maddie, you spent 4 and 1/2 years at Google and then you walked away in the worst tech market in a decade.

Not only did you walk away, you walked away with four offers on the table.

But before we get into how you did that, I want to ask the more obvious question first.

Why did you leave the greatest tech company in the world?

I asked myself that question so many times when I was interviewing to leave and then.

I had a lot of like thoughts when I left, but ultimately it came down to three main reasons.

Uh first and foremost, I really love learning.

I want to continuously learn. Um I think Google's a great place to start a career and to learn a lot of.

Technology.

However, it got to the point where I felt as though I could learn more and learn faster if I just switched.

To a different company. Like nothing against Google, obviously.

So, I had already switched teams at Google, so I think that taught me some stuff, and I felt like the most.

Natural segue was just try a different company.

Um second, Google is a great company, but it's very, very big.

I believe when I was there, there's more than 200,000 employees.

Um because of that, sometimes it just takes a bit longer, you know, to get approvals,.

Uh to get your like documents out there for people to read.

And I was um I wanted to see what it'd be like to work at a small slightly smaller company.

I had worked at very small companies like startups and mid-size companies.

When I was doing internships, but I never experienced that full-time.

So, I just felt it was kind of time.

To uh you know, try my hand at a smaller company and see how it goes.

Um I also felt like it was a great time to leave in terms of my career trajectory cuz I'd been there.

For a bit over 4 and 1/2 years when I left.

I kind of think of it as college, kind of.

Like, you know, I was I I was I was at college for a little bit under 4 years, and I was.

At Google for a bit over 4 years.

So, it feels like graduating.

Um to kind of like put it into perspective.

So,.

I think 4 years is a great time for me because I think I learned a lot, my stocks vested.

Um I think it was a great community, um but I felt like it was time that I left because.

I.

You probably have experienced like golden handcuffs.

I think that if I didn't take the leap of faith and leave, I might never leave.

And that's like fine, right? But I do feel like there is something to be said for uh you know,.

There's something to be said for being in an environment where you have free food, free gym, all your friends, everything for.

You, and.

I just felt like I needed to kind of just take the leap of faith and just try making it out on.

My own. So, those are the primary reasons why I left Google.

So, what was your total compensation at Google when you left?

Uh when I left, my base salary was 189k.

Um and my annual bonus was around 33k,.

And.

Uh the rest I got in stock,.

And total was about 315k.

Got it. So, you're making over $300,000.

A year as a senior software engineer at Google.

You mentioned golden handcuffs. I mean, incredible salary, incredible perks.

Like, why not just stay in the handcuffs?

That's a great question. Um I.

In some level kind of still wish like, you know, I had all my like food with me, my gym, my friends,.

But I do think in order to grow as a developer and grow as a person, it is important to put yourself.

In new situations and less comfortable situations.

So, uh since leaving Google, for example, I have branched out my social circle.

Um I've learned a lot of new technologies,.

And I'm like very happy. I was very happy at Google, but I'm very happy that I left.

Did you have a moment where you first started thinking, "Maybe I should leave?"

Or was it kind of a gradual thing over time?

I think it was more gradual.

I will say I'm very influenced by what my friends do.

Like, if my friends say like you should jump off a bridge, I would because I 100% trust my friends.

So, after I think around 2 and 1/2.

3 years, some of my friends started leaving.

And at first, I was like Oh, like at first, I didn't really think much of it, but then as more and.

More people left, naturally just because I think the tenure in tech is so short,.

I felt like, "Oh, maybe there's something I should consider."

However, I didn't seriously do anything.

Like, I didn't interview prep. I didn't interview at all until.

One specific day where.

Uh for reasons, I was.

I I got corp access revoked for a couple of hours.

Um this is like a random Tuesday, and to be honest, this was a month after one of my good friends had.

Gotten like laid off. So, I was like terrified.

I like panicked. I was like, "Oh my gosh, like am I laid off?"

Like I was literally in the office.

Um, I I was looking at my teammates.

They were logged in, and they were totally fine.

Eventually, it was like revealed to be like a very unrelated bug.

But,.

In that moment, I was like really panicked, obviously.

And then I just went for a run cuz I couldn't like think properly.

I ran the fastest 5K I've ever run in my life.

But, during the run, I felt a little bit of just like.

I guess like contentness. And I was like, "Okay, you know, if this happens, it happens."

And then I calmed down.

But, it was that particular just moment where I was like, "Oh, I don't think leaving Google is the end of the.

World if I do it. And if my friends.

Left and they seem happy, then maybe it's time for me to at least like try and see if there's something I.

Would even consider."

So, after that particular moment,.

I started interview prepping, and then I submitted my first application.

Did you have a specific plan when you left Google?

Like a specific kind of company you wanted to move towards, or did you kind of just leave and see what happens?

I was pretty open to companies.

Um, I just knew I didn't want to do like super big tech.

Um, open I was a pretty open to startups, to mid-sized companies, to smaller big tech companies.

Um, I also wanted to be a more back-end engineer.

At Google, I was full-stack, primarily front-end.

And I wanted to just go a little bit deeper in the back-end of the stack.

In terms of product, I wanted to work for a company whose product I really like using as a user.

So, obviously like, you know, I'm a massive fan of Google Search.

And like I myself have clicked on many of the ads that my team in Google Search Ads created before I was.

On the team. So, for me, just like knowing the product and liking the product is a big reason why I would.

Join a company. So, you decided to leave Google.

You end up interviewing at 12 companies,.

OpenAI, Meta, Pinterest, Databricks, Netflix, and more, all while working full-time.

So, could you actually break down the numbers here?

Out of those 12, how many offers did you get?

And more importantly,.

How did you pull that off in a market where people can't even get a single interview?

So, out of those 12, I got four offers.

Um I think I was very lucky,.

To be honest. Um.

I know it's not a good job market out there, but.

Uh I think first I was searching for specifically senior software engineering roles, even though the new grad market is not as.

Good. The senior job market seemed okay as far as when I was searching.

I also had to be very careful with my time because as you mentioned, I was working full-time.

I was also lucky in that I started searching around November, and then I got an offer in December.

Around that time is also when one uh you know, most companies have like a bit of a slowdown because of like.

Code freezes stuff, so I actually didn't have as much work.

In my night at Google.

As I did normally, like in the rest of the year where we're just going and going and going.

And then uh second,.

I also think that companies are somewhat trying to like, you know, get all the um head count filled before the end.

Of the year and there's like a reset.

So, I do think a lot of companies were like trying to like hire.

Actively then. So, for me, what really helped was just like setting time blocks.

So, for example, it's like, okay, like at 6:00, I'm going to like get off my corp, get on my personal laptop,.

Do some leak code. I also made a plan.

Um I had never.

Done actual system design interviews before.

I left because I joined Google as a new grad where you don't have system design interviews.

So, I like, you know, grokking the modern system design interview, I looked at like hello interview videos, and like, you know,.

Did that. So, I think what really helped was just the timing of the year that it was, and also.

Being very.

Strict when it comes to time blocking and just like saving the time after work for interview prepping.

So, somebody wants to make the jump from mid-level to senior.

Do you think it's more effective to recruit outside and change companies or just do it within the same company?

That's a great question. I think it depends on different circumstances.

I will say some companies will not consider you for senior.

If you don't have a certain level years of experience.

For example, I considered interviewing with a company that said like, "We will not consider you a senior unless you have 6.

Years of experience."

That particular company I happen to know most of my friends had been promoted from new grad to mid-level to senior in.

Less than 4 years, so I knew it was like possible in the internal track, but I think they're a bit more.

Strict when it comes to external candidates.

So,.

If you have I would say like less than 4 years of experience.

Interviewing externally,.

It is harder to get companies to consider you as an L5 as a senior even if you already are a senior.

So, in that situation I definitely recommend try to get promoted internally.

And then use that as leverage to leave.

Um for external when you get the chance.

However, I will say um if you have more years of experience,.

You could try to do both.

Like you could try to work hard to get promoted at your current company and you could also just like interview around.

And see if any companies consider you as a senior elsewhere.

So, I've had multiple friends who've done one path or the other and I think both are great strategies.

Um if you have more than like 4 and 1/2 years of experience or you have less than 4, I think it's.

More realistic to try to get promoted at your current company.

You were working full-time at Google like you mentioned the whole time you were recruiting.

So, how did you manage your energy?

When were you studying before work, after work, lunch breaks?

How did you manage that? I'm not a morning person, so it's all after work to be very honest.

Um.

Yeah, I think that.

Again I had actually just.

I had less engineering work at Google.

Because of code freezes, so it just so happened that I had a bit more free time than I had for the.

Rest of the year.

I I'm the kind of person.

Where I yeah, I work like 9:00 to 6:00, but usually.

I think my mind is continuously on work after work, which is I know not super healthy.

I have to work on it.

But.

I think for the rest of the year I just like so focused on my actual engineering work, I didn't consider interviewing.

Or leaving.

Uh I think with the slow down the work in November, December, I was like, "Okay, like maybe I should actually like.

Focus on other stuff outside of work outside of work hours."

So, like I mentioned, yeah, being just like time blocking, being regimented with when I was studying and what I was doing.

Also, um playing less board games, like hanging out less with friends as a sacrifice that I definitely was happy that I.

Made, but I it was a sacrifice at that time.

I play way too many board games.

Um and then finally,.

Uh there was some vacation that uh you know, like Thanksgiving break that I took and actually spent most of that studying.

In like foreign countries instead of actually having fun, which I don't mind.

Um I actually do.

Uh study and work a lot usually when I'm on vacation, but it was like especially.

Then um.

As an example, when I went to Singapore for a vacation 2 years ago for Thanksgiving,.

I was I took an interview at 2:00 a.m.

In the morning.

And also did was like studying instead of going and seeing most of the sites.

Could you explain what a code freeze is if somebody's not familiar?

And also, how did you get so many offers in 2 months when most people can't get an offer in 2 years?

A code freeze is basically when some companies.

Will.

Restrict engineers from pushing and deploying to production.

When it comes to holidays and such because they want it to be stable.

And when there's holidays, there's usually less engineers on call to fix issues if they arise.

So, I will say big companies like Google often have code freezes.

Around Thanksgiving and around Christmas so that.

You know, Christmas shopping doesn't break on Google search.

For example, or people who are trying to do Black Friday shopping don't like get 404 errors.

I genuinely think that I got pretty lucky.

Um I think it just so happened that I happened to interview.

With companies.

A lot of companies that reached out specifically to me.

I will say if I were to do this again, I would definitely do more outbound.

I'd recommend getting referrals.

I actually didn't get any referrals this time around.

Um that's something that I would change.

I think my rate was so good because I only applied to companies whose recruiters reached out directly to me.

So obviously they already were considering me in their pipeline.

And they already um you know envisioned potentially giving me an offer.

Um I think if I if I was to cold email and cold apply, the uh timeline would probably be a lot.

Longer. You mentioned regretting not using referrals.

How important are referrals in the market of today?

I think they're very important especially given that it's quite an employer's market nowadays.

Um again, referrals don't mean that you'll automatically get the job, but referrals do make it more likely that a recruiter actually.

Like sits down and considers your application.

Um my friends who've gotten referrals have had much better luck.

Uh in the companies that they had referrals to compared to the companies that they just cold applied to.

Yeah, so I've worked with several students to help them get jobs in tech and I always mention that they should be.

Getting referrals.

And funny enough, at one point a student got a referral and then within like 45 minutes they got rejected.

And then the guy calls me and goes like, "Bro, I'm on.

You told me to get referrals.

I got a referral. I got instantly rejected.

Like what the hell? Like what gives, man?

Like this isn't working." And I sat him down and I was like, "Look, man.

That's actually a benefit. You know why you got rejected within 45 minutes and not ghosted?

Because the recruiter saw your application,.

Decided they didn't want you, and rejected you.

So it just proves that like these referrals make it so that it puts you in a different pool, right?

That recruiters and hiring managers actually look at your application.

Compared to sitting in this pile and not even looked at."

Yeah, I will say I would rather get rejected immediately than just be ghosted and not know what's happening with my application.

For weeks, which has happened in other companies as well.

Talk to me about some crazy interview experiences you've had in general.

Yeah, so I've interviewed at my fair share of companies, so I've had some fair share of in retrospect I'll say funny.

Experiences.

One that really comes top of mind is when I was interviewing for one of the foundational model companies, um my interviewer.

Joined and he looked quite nervous and I uh eventually he mentioned, "Oh, there's like kind of an issue.

I'm on call.

Like sev one. I'm I'll be a little bit distracted."

I was like, "Okay." So I started like coding my little thing up and then like 5 minutes into the interview he.

Was like, "Oh, okay, sev zero.

Our our our like website is down.

So sorry." And then he like kind of just like uh he was still on the call but it's very obvious he.

Was very distracted.

I ended up passing that interview and I think one of the reasons was because I.

I like I like to think I'm funny.

So when he said that he was like, you know, sev zero like his website was down I was like, "Oh, at.

Least you know that I'm not using your model to cheat."

Uh he laughed a little bit too hard at that.

So, you know, I think that worked out.

I would say in my favor.

And the second one is.

I I swear like I don't bring technical issues to all the companies I interview for, but a second example of something.

That happened was I was interviewing for a pretty big company.

What happened was I was doing my regular like, you know, coding leet code style question, talking through my thought process.

Interviewer was like, yeah, asking me some questions and like I was like just doing my thing.

Uh but then in the middle like, you know, there was a couple minutes passed, you know, I wasn't looking at the.

Interviewer because I was like busy with my code.

I asked him a question, he didn't respond.

I was like, "Huh?" So I looked back at our screen and turns out he left the call.

I was super confused like, "Oh my god, was my code that bad that he just like straight up left the interview?"

Um so I, you know,.

I I I also uh went back to my email, looked at uh.

Emailed the recruiter, was like, "Oh, you know, did something happen?

Like can we reschedule?"

Eventually.

After around 10 more minutes the recruiter actually jumped in the call herself,.

And she explained, "Oh, there's actually like a giant power outage at the the the headquarters of this company, and apparently your.

Your interviewer.

Can't have doesn't have internet anymore, and they can't can't tell you that he can't have internet."

So, we had to reschedule that interview, unfortunately, but I was kind of sad cuz like, "Oh, I actually knew how to.

Do the problem." I was like, you know, I was I was grooving.

But, those are two of the I think more funny examples of things that happened when I was interviewing around.

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You don't have to say any names of companies, but but when you say frontier model lab, could you just list some.

Examples of what that would be defined as?

Yeah, uh so, I mean, frontier labs, there's like, you know, OpenAI, Anthropic, like Meta Superintelligence,.

Google DeepMind, um etc. Just like all the companies that are making the really cool models that you see in in uh.

Nowadays. So, everybody listening to this has seen the headlines, AI engineers making 500K, millions of dollars at these frontier labs.

But, you actually did the homework on this.

You went through hundreds of job postings, talked to your friends at OpenAI and Anthropic,.

And figured out what companies are actually hiring for right now.

So, uh I'm going to ask you bluntly, if I'm a computer science student or junior engineer listening right now and I.

Want to become an AI engineer,.

Who are these people who are AI engineers and what do they do all day?

Yeah, so I think the day-to-day is actually quite similar to a regular software engineer except they're like closely touching the models.

But they're they're not like fine-tuning, they're not like actually working on the research of the models themselves.

First of all, what's the difference between an AI researcher and an AI engineer?

Yeah, so an AI researcher.

Is.

A person who actually works on the inner like workings of AI models.

So, for example,.

Interpretability,.

Running evals, and just like making fine-tuning the model,.

Developing the model itself.

Versus an AI engineer.

Who takes the output from what an AI researcher works on and then implements it into applications.

That then can be used by other software engineers or people who are using, you know, ChatGPT or other models.

To break into the field, do you need a PhD.

Or.

Can you just self-study and figure it out?

For AI researcher,.

Most of my friends do have PhDs, but I also know a couple of friends who don't.

I will say if you want to have a good shot of being an AI.

Researcher, especially in a frontier model.

Company, having a PhD really helps.

But there are exceptions. Like some of the best AI researchers I know.

Don't have like have a master's or only have a bachelor's.

For AI engineering,.

I will say it's a lot more open.

Most of the AI engineers I know do not have a PhD.

It's more like I mentioned, it's more similar to software engineering work.

It's just like do you have experience.

Building.

With AI models. When you analyze those job postings, what skills showed up over and over again that people don't really talk.

About? I think there's a couple of things that people don't talk about that I've seen.

One of the biggest ones is evals.

I know evals aren't, you know, as like sexy as, you know, like building the model itself, but um basically being able.

To set up a good eval system, uh basically.

Being able to.

Uh set up like test cases and tell if a model is actually acting correctly is actually very important.

Both in terms.

Of uh ensuring correctness of your application and in terms of understanding AI fundamentals in my opinion.

So, I think evals is one thing that I don't think people talk enough about, but it shows up a lot in.

Job.

Applications and listings.

Other things that I've seen a lot that are talked about more is, like for example, knowing like how to build like.

A rag system, like retrieval augmented generation,.

Or how to like use MCPs and how to uh build your own MCP.

I've seen like people who want um people with experience building those.

If somebody wants to make the pivot and get a job as an AI researcher or a AI or AI engineer.

And they're currently a computer science student or software engineer, what are the big skills they need to learn to be able.

To make that pivot? Yeah, I would say uh first and foremost, learn ML fundamentals.

And uh for example, like you can look at LangChain, you can take there's like a bunch of courses, like deep learning.

Courses out there. I will say those I don't think are um.

Those are not going to help you in your day-to-day.

Skills, but understanding the fundamentals is very important.

Next, I would say learn things like MCP, like rag.

Um those are very useful and I think universally applicable to a lot of different jobs and a lot of different.

Um types of AI engineering.

And then I would say build projects uh because obviously um in this day and age, like a.

It's kind of like chicken and egg, right?

If you don't have a job, then you can't then it's harder to build skills that determine that you can get the.

Next job and so and so forth.

So, the way to help with that is to actually,.

For example, build your own rag or deploy your own system that shows that you actually have the chops to build these.

Things. If somebody has built up the skills to actually get this role, what's the best way to actually get interviews at.

These companies? Yeah, I would say referrals is number one.

Um, but I also know that some people like build very in public.

Um, I personally don't as much, but for example, I have like friends who have gotten jobs because uh they um were.

Not in the field and they just like posted on LinkedIn or on X or on Instagram and then showed their process.

And then was were reached out to by recruiters and to buy people.

So I think showcasing.

Your work, whether it's on a social media platform, whether it's on GitHub, can be very useful.

And asking for referrals can be very useful, but.

Again,.

Cold asking for referrals doesn't work.

Ask for referrals if you have people in your life or in your professional.

Circles that can actually vouch for how you are as an engineer.

And talk to me about what the standard interview process is at these kinds of companies.

So what does a normal interview loop look like at an AI company?

For an AI engineer.

Loop,.

Um it's very similar to a software engineering loop.

So first, you would have the behavioral.

Round initially when the recruiter calls.

Just make sure like, you know, you guys are aligned with what level you're interviewing for.

A lot of the companies actually, um I will say don't tell you the level straight up.

They'll be like, "Hey, like you might you're targeting this level, but you might do worse and if you do worse, you.

Might get an offer, but it'll be a lower level."

Next, they'll schedule the initial rounds.

So this is usually like a phone screen.

It'll be a technical question or two.

Um, usually leak code style as of now, but I know different companies are moving toward more AI assisted interviews.

When I was interviewing, it was leak code style.

So you're you're just your typical systems.

Algorithms questions.

Some of the companies have a initial system design round here as well.

Just to make sure that you know the fundamentals of, you know, system design before the onsite.

If you perform well on those interviews, then you go to the onsite.

So, the onsite.

Is a.

More extensive interview where you not it's not just one question or two questions.

It's like couple hours or a whole day of questions.

Um those are you'll have your system design round, your actual one where it's like more comprehensive and a deeper dive than.

The initial screening one. You'll have two or three more coding questions.

And then you will and these are usually I would say equally or harder than the coding questions you had in the.

Screening.

And then often times you'll have.

Um a cross-functional.

Round where you'll be talking with not if you're engineer, you'll be talking with like a product manager.

Or with like a UX researcher.

And explaining a past project.

And then um I've also had companies.

Offer a technical deep front dive round where they ask me to.

Um prepare a project that I worked on in the past.

Like obviously I can redact like information, but they just want to know not just how I interview, but also what I've.

Actually done in the past to build like a real system.

You mentioned the AI-assisted.

Round. This is a massive new update.

All of these big tech companies and also of course AI companies are launching more AI-enabled rounds.

It specifically Meta kind of led the front of this.

What have you heard about that?

And then how do you how does And then how does one prepare for this kind of round?

As a disclaimer, when I interviewed Meta hadn't come up with the round yet.

So, this is mostly what I've heard second-hand from my friends.

But.

Um I think there are two schools of thought.

There are some companies like Meta and others that are explicitly allowing AI in several of the rounds and you're being graded.

With the interviewer knowing.

When you're using the AI. On the other hand, I know Google for example actually recently.

Announced that they were recent Google actually started bringing more people in person.

Instead of offering AI-assisted rounds and I think that's partially because of the rampant like AI cheating.

They just like it's harder or impossible to cheat in person rather than like behind a screen.

Um and I know for example.

Some of the frontier labs like Anthropic they don't have AI in their interview rounds.

Um I think it's definitely a shift and there's some companies going toward this AI assisted rounds but some companies are trying.

Their best not to. I'm not exactly sure which one will.

Prevail.

But yeah I I do know that the meta one definitely was like it was a really big news when it came.

Out and other companies started doing it when meta came out with that.

And I do remember when that news came out I was not actually interviewing but I still had access to my candidate.

Portal.

So I actually did go in and kind of like look and they did have the I didn't try it but they.

Did have like the instructions for like how to practice for those rounds there.

So I think um.

In terms of how to practice and set yourself up for the best of success when it comes to these rounds.

Um it's not don't just like paste stuff into the AI and like copy paste it.

Your interview is not going to like that.

Instead I would say do as much of it by hand like when you're practicing as you can but if you get.

Stuck you can use AI for example to look up syntax.

To do some scaffolding stuff but in the end you aren't now not being you're not just being graded on a correct.

Answer. Your interviewer also wants to know how you think.

So you have to be very careful to convey that you can think critically and you can get the answer and you're.

Just using AI as an assist not as like your entire coding prowess.

You mentioned Google is electing to bring people in person with their old interview style rather than.

Incorporate AI.

Into their interview like meta. So do you have any I guess gut feeling or reason why Google is more hesitant to.

Kind of change their interview process?

My guess is so both companies are big.

Google especially prides itself on having like a very very comprehensive.

Hiring packet when deciding whether to hire someone or not.

Um I think.

Again, I have never worked at Meta, so I don't know firsthand on the other side of the process, but I do.

Know that a lot of people it takes a lot longer to get an offer from Google, and the reason for doing.

So is because they're they're really, really thorough.

Meta, I'm sure is as well, but for some reason it moves faster.