Uh, working with Zuck was amazing.

He was always brutally honest, like very straightforward.

Let me give you a concrete example of where he was just trying to push the boundaries.

Today I'm interviewing Philip Sue, a former distinguished engineer at Meta, which is one of the highest levels of software engineering across.

The industry. It's four whole levels above being a senior.

He got to work directly with Mark Zuckerberg and Meta CTO's before he decided to leave and join OpenAI in its earliest.

Days. There he got exclusive firsthand experience on the future of AI.

And in this video, we're going to be diving into his experience, his insights on AI, and what you as a computer.

Science or software engineering student need to do to navigate this new reality.

Are computer science majors cooked? Is it is AI taking over?

>> I think in the long run, it feels like yes.

With that being said, let's get right into the video.

You were a distinguished.

Software engineer at Meta, which is one of the highest levels of software engineering at that company and at most companies.

Like there are juniors, there are seniors, there are principles and way above that we got distinguished engineer.

You were one of eight people who got that honor.

Can you tell me how you got there?

>> Yeah, great question. So, I had been working in industry by that point probably 20 years and so it had been.

A long slow journey, right? Uh but I also think I joined Facebook at a relatively early time when there were many.

Opportunities to do big things. And so for instance my first feature video calling was written with just two other engineers and.

It was the entire feature end to end right and so product reviews were done with Zach directly and things like that.

And so I I think because of that there were just a lot of opportunities when I started in industry for instance.

I spent all my time at work like literally you know probably.

Uh 18 plus hours uh right I had a sleeping bag in my office like I just worked all hours and that's.

Definitely not something that I recommend end unless a person is really committed to that being what they want, right?

But I do think like those long hours were a big thing.

And I think a lot of it also is just being in the right company at the right time, right?

You can be doing great work, but if the company is not itself expanding into bigger opportunities,.

Then your own opportunities will be limited by that.

Whereas I think when I joined Facebook, it was expanding very quickly and so there were so many domains that you could.

Do interesting work in. Were there any key projects or.

Technical.

Artifacts that you developed per se that really pushed you to get to the distinguished level?

>> I think the work that really helped grow me over time, you know, we did a rewrite of web messenger which.

Was really fascinating.

Uh did the video calling feature,.

Worked on workplace a bit and a few other products, worked in the sharing team for uh newsfeed and stuff like that.

So there were just many opportunities whereas at Microsoft for instance when I worked there um a person switches teams maybe every.

Two to five years at Microsoft at Facebook it was very common to switch teams every six months you know because products.

Were shipping so quickly you probably shipped your product in six months and so you moved on to other things >> and.

At what point did you join Facebook to have all these opportunities >> when I joined the company was 500 engineers globally.

Oh okay. Okay. So you got to put in your imprint.

Yeah. Early >> on because it was very small back then.

And and so with 500 engineers um if you think about the people at maybe senior or principal level.

It it would be realistic to know all of them you know and so the work is very direct.

The level of trust between teams is very high because you know the individuals personally.

>> Okay. Cool. Cool. And.

So I know as junior software engineers and even to a certain level senior software engineers uh we write code we create.

Design documents sometimes talk to customers.

Once you start getting past that distinguish engineer or even like certain levels around there what is the nature of your work.

>> yeah this is a great question because I think it's different from some jobs like for instance take professional basketball right.

If you start off as a basketball player and you eventually get drafted into the MBA,.

You the skills that got you there are still going to be the skills that will make you great.

Like you just have to be great at an exceptional level, right?

I don't think that's true for most software developers.

Meaning like the things that got you there aren't going to get you to the next level.

So when you first start, it's a lot about being able to implement things well and correctly and quickly, right?

But eventually everybody gets to an asmtoic point where their personal contribution code-wise can only be so much.

A lot of your impact later on will be uh helping the team choose the right things to work on being a.

Huge thing. Convincing the team about technical vision or even about business vision is going to be a huge thing.

So I think those skills are often not the ones that most software developers.

Um have when they first start.

>> Interesting. Yeah. So I think especially junior software engineers, we're like code code, right?

We're barely thinking about the full scope of the work that we're working on.

We might not even own a feature of a product, right?

So, how does one start thinking like that?

>> I think a huge thing many people miss is most people don't think like owners,.

Meaning owners of the business, not owners of a feature.

Like, you've got to think to yourself always, if I ran this company, would I want myself to be working on this.

Thing right now in this way?

>> Most people don't think that way.

>> Do you have an example of Yeah.

>> Let me give you super concrete things, right?

Like, like for instance, most people if their workplace lets them fly business class, they'll do all sorts of things to fly.

Business, right? Like people at Microsoft used to do funny things like reroute the flight to have a leg that was long.

Enough to qualify for business so they could get right if you own the business you wouldn't do that >> if it.

Was your money you wouldn't do that right so then if you don't act like an owner you'll never be made an.

Owner right so I I feel like most people don't embrace the larger question of like should I be working on this.

If I own this place would I spend money this way would I spend my time this way I think the more.

You can think from an overall holistic perspective and think in a way that's aligned with what all the strategic people in.

The company would agree with uh the easier time you will um get in growing.

I guess I have a follow-up question on that is as a junior engineer if you even want to think like an.

Owner right sometimes.

You're given such little scope in terms of where you can make a contribution such that if a senior engineer or principal.

Engineer is like saying something this is how it'll be why would they evaluate your opinions over theirs so then how would.

You ever be able to make that >> yeah that is a really deep and profound question so I think I will.

Cover it on a few fronts first is as you know most tech companies still claim they cannot hire all the right.

People they need. Most companies, even despite layoffs, like they will continue to tell you they cannot hire all those people.

So, by definition, the team that you're on, most likely if they could get a more experienced person on it, they would.

Love that. And then the question is, why aren't you that person?

Right?

>> If they claim they need it >> and yet you aren't that person, what's stopping it?

I think there are a few things that might be stopping it.

One is simply we don't all have the skills we will eventually have one day in our career.

So some of it is you've got to earn that respect, right?

And earning that respect means like um Dr.

Martin Luther King Jr. said like if all you can be is a bush, be the best little bush, right?

Like um if you cannot be trusted with small things, no one's going to trust you with big things.

And so when you start on a mundane thing, like it's very standard when you first join a team, you probably fix.

Bugs, right? Well, be the best bug fixer there is, right?

Fix them faster than anybody else, right?

You got to earn that before people give it to you.

But the second thing about it is a lot of times we're so heads down that we don't make the time to.

Spend to think about the larger things that would impact the team.

>> So so often we're so busy trying to meet our uh you know bug fixing criteria.

We're like we're going to ship this product, right?

That very few people are taking the time to for instance consider what industry competitors might be doing at this moment, what.

The business might need uh that might be bigger than the thing.

So so much of our time is spent trying to microoptimize.

And be efficient in our day-to-day work.

Instead of making the biggest efficiency gain, which is choosing the right things to work on.

>> So I guess start in your small spheres of influence.

Do the best that you can.

Yes. And then it'll start growing.

But still always think kind of like an owner.

Yes. >> As if you this is your product that you're shipping out, not Zuckerberg's product or anyone else.

>> Yeah. To totally like imagine if you ran a small team of five developers, right?

Um and one of them is like 17 years old, a prodigy is joined, very little sort of work experience, right?

>>.

Yeah. >> But if he or she was always saying smart things, there's no way you would ignore what they say because.

You know their age. Like that is just not a realistic thing.

What is more likely is they aren't saying smart things, right?

Or they're saying them in a way that is abrasive or hard to accept or they're saying it at the wrong time.

When we're super focused, they're talking about these big ideas, right?

So I think most people do not ignore.

Obviously smart things that are being said.

And then the question is how can you become the person that says those smart things?

First you got to get the smarts, right?

You got to put in the hours to get the smarts.

But then you also have to know when and how to say things in a way that is timed correctly and that.

Is accepted by the right people to make the impact that you want to make.

>> Okay. Cool. Cool. All right.

And so now for probably one of the most juiciest questions.

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And now back to the video.

>> My data on that is going to be about 10 plus years old, right?

But I do think it's realistic to think somewhere between 1 and $5 million per year based a lot on performance within.

Level. >> Okay. Cool. Cool. And what's that breakdown of like salary, stock, bonus?

>> It's overwhelmingly.

Stock. It's because as you get more impactful in a company, more senior, the expectation is that you will affect the company's.

Fortunes more directly.

>> If you just join a company as a college hire straight out, nobody expects you to move the stock price, right?

But if you are the lead of one of the company's large offices, it is expected that if you perform well that.

The company will do better. And in that case, giving you stock as your primary compensation makes a lot more sense.

>> Yeah. Okay. Cool. Cool. That's nice to know and very incentivizing.

Another perk of being at such a high level at Meta was you got to work directly with Zuckerberg on certain things.

What did you learn from him and what were the things you worked on with him?

>> Yeah, great question. And I'll start with leading with one observation which is.

You don't get to work with those people because you are that level.

You became that level because you worked with them.

>> Oh, interesting. >> If that makes sense.

Like people don't listen to you because you're a certain level.

Yeah. Okay. You earn that level uh by being a person who says things that people listen to and then they eventually.

Think, "Oh, this guy says smart things."

>> And then they automatically bump you up.

>> Totally. Yeah. Working with Zuck was amazing.

Um he is super focused, right?

I think he also is um I found him genuinely well-intentioned,.

Meaning like he genuinely seems to want what is best, right?

Um I also found it was great that he was always brutally honest, like very straightforward, like would just tell you when.

He disagreed with something. Um would make some observations.

Um let me give you a concrete example of where he was just trying to push the boundaries, right?

Um so I along with maybe three or four other engineers were responsible for the rewrite of web messenger.

Okay. >> Back in the day.

>> and back then it integrated with email if you can believe it.

So um Zuck actually asked like hey why don't we go up against Gmail right and we thought what Gmail like we.

Had like four engineers how is this going to work right?

But we discussed it for like three minutes and then he said, "Well, >> I wasn't really thinking that we'd do it,.

But I just wanted to figure out what the what the boundaries, right?"

And so I do think he's willing to consider much more broadly.

Um the solution space than I would have myself considered.

>> Okay, cool. Cool. So he was trying to push the limits of what you could work on >> and just to.

Think from first principles, right? Like like why is it that you can't compete with with Gmail?

Well, it turns out there were a lot of reasons back when Facebook was that was that small that you couldn't, right?

But at least you know it's worth thinking about and articulating.

>> and where there are certain things that he taught you that helped you later on in your career.

Um.

I do think I still struggle to be very direct with people.

So I think engaging in hard conversations was one thing that both he and Cheryl Sandberg focused a lot on encouraging people.

To do. Um in the company encouraging people to give feedback openly to people you know so when you submit feedback to.

Attach your name to the feedback.

This is something that many people feel uncomfortable with, but it's something that I learned over time and I pushed myself to.

Do. >> Mhm. And were there any things that you learned from him that could be applicable to people who are trying.

To break into tech? Always be building, right?

In college, he was building before he dropped out, right?

And so I think you give yourself more shots at goal if you're actually doing things, right?

Many people think, "Oh, well, I'll start building once you pay me to build."

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think like with the leveling, right?

It goes the opposite direction. You build first and then people pay you because they love what you build.

>> The best way to even get hired as a software engineer, people encourage just build things and post about what you're.

Building. People will reach out to you.

>> Yes. Totally. And the opposite thing can happen like some people will not take an internship somewhere because it pays too.

Little. Right. And what I told my son who is doing an in internship this summer, what I told him is the.

Best uh places to work, you should be willing to pay them.

>>.

Yeah. >> You know what I mean?

Like because you want to gain the experience.

Absolutely. Like if you had a chance to work with a luminary like in any field, right?

In in fashion, in basketball, in whatever, you should be willing to pay for that experience.

And the the the type of person that says, "I will work for you once you pay me."

>>.

Yeah. >> That is the person that will always be the wage earner, right?

Because they are thinking not like an owner.

They are thinking like a paid a hired hand.

>> And uh I'm just curious about your time at Meta.

You were a software engineer on that path.

You also went to being a manager director.

You influenced a lot of hiring decisions, right?

When it came to interns and software engineers.

A lot of our audience are interested in getting hired as a software engineering intern or software engineer.

What were some hiring decisions you made that we could derive some insights to help them?

I make hiring decisions very differently, I think, from how most companies I've worked for want me to hire.

So, I need to put that.

On there, right? But I bias strongly toward uh figuring out things uh you want that are hard to change.

Okay. >> So many companies they'll do like a coding interview and then we'll do a design interview.

And I feel like most of those things honestly can be easily taught like for a reasonably sharp person.

I feel like the things that cannot be changed are very difficult to change but you actually want in a person.

One is self-starting right an initiative and a drive to do things um on their own.

Um a ability to receive feedback and to really be insightful about themselves.

That's a thing that many people struggle with.

And if you don't have that, you're not going to build that in someone, right?

For sure. >> Third is a bent toward collaborative.

Uh working, right? Uh like a lot of people.

Um especially the stronger they are as an individual, the easier it is for them to be the lone frontiersmen on the,.

You know, the western front like defending their own territory, right?

Um, but it it it becomes harder to find people that truly make groups better when they're in >> there.

They don't want to work with others at that point.

>> Exactly. So, you end up like.

I end up looking for those characteristics a lot more than like can you code this thing?

Can you design this thing which I feel like for most smart people are easily teachable.

>> What are things that.

Current people who want to make it into software engineering should focus on?

>> Yeah. Current day, >> I feel it's really tough with AI coming on, right?

The thing that I tell people a lot is, you know, AI is not going to put everybody out of a job,.

But it might uh put, you know, 30% of people out of a job, right?

Well,.

I think over time higher than that, but but but the the percentage is not all or none suddenly.

It's not like one day you wake up and there are no software developers.

But I do think the tide is rising quickly.

Winter is coming and you will survive if you are always in the top fraction of people, right?

So, nobody like uh will go to zero on all the hiring.

People tend to want to keep the best people.

I would say even if you consistently try to be above average, just the top 50%.

That should keep you safe for a long time.

>> And what are those defining characteristics that people can work on?

>> Yeah. Well, I would say.

If you even just work harder than the average person, right?

Many people just want to work the minimum amount that they can get paid their salary for these slow quitting people or.

Whatever >> quitting. Yeah. Yeah. Like like.

There are many people that think it's a it's this huge life hack to like be undiscovered.

Like laziness, right? Like you're you're you're just like outsourcing all your work.

If you just work hard, you're already going to be way ahead of most people.

But the other thing is don't strap yourself to things that are obviously disappearing.

>> What's obvious? Like I would say my personal opinion right now is if you choose to join a company that refuses.

To let you use AI as part of the day's coding, you are joining a thing that is going to be an.

Outmoded.

Uh business soon.

Like I right now would refuse to join a company that would not let me use the latest technology that I can.

Use to produce the code. So that that's a good example where you just don't want to strap yourself to sh uh.

To sinking ships either. >> Yeah.

And I guess part of that is potentially.

Hopping companies, exploring what's latest in the trends and all that.

>> Yeah, you you have to be insightful about whether your company is one of these sinking ships, right?

And and.

And if it is, you should find a way out.

>> I got to ask, are computer science majors cooked?

Is it is AI taking over?

>> Well, I think in the long run, it feels like yes.

Now, the question is how long?

>> Okay, the question is is is how?

>> Elaborate. You just a lot of people.

So there are many people that will say to you things like well we thought the ATM would replace bank tellers but.

Now we have more bank tellers than we ever did right.

Um so that is the majority opinion.

Um I think it will displace most jobs that can be done uh systematically.

And the thing with software is that the best software is built systematically.

Right? It's uh and the the semantics of coding languages are well defined.

And so it's unlike asking software to write the the great American novel, right?

Where the semantics aren't as strongly defined.

So I I do think it's a structured job.

>> You take a job like parallegals, right, who might have the biggest thing they might do on a weekend is read.

5,000 pages and summarize, right? This is something that AI is perfect at, right?

>> So are are we still going to have those jobs?

Almost definitely not. Right? So I do think software falls somewhere in that bucket of like.

It it will probably replace most software developers.

But then the question of how how fast this is really hard to say, right?

There are many people that say like, oh, it's easy to get to 80%, but it's hard to go from 80 to.

90 and 90 to 100. And that may well be happening here as well.

>> And so then I have to ask you, are there more roles that you think will emerge as a result of.

AI.

Um that potentially software engineers can go into?

>> Yeah. So if you consider, for instance, tech meetups, right?

One of the things that annoyed me most about tech meetups is a lot of them you'll go to, it's always I'm.

A CEO that's looking for a CTO, right?

This is very classic. I have this brilliant idea.

I'm looking for a CTO, right?

Um, that sort of person now is super empowered, right?

They no longer need a technical person.

They can probably vibe code their first prototype to at least have a proof of concept work.

>> So just the one man CEO can >> Yes.

So I I think it democratizes.

As you said that as well is the accessibility of building custom software.

Like the beauty with a computer is that it is a universal tool.

If you can express to it what you want done, it can do it.

So this is a generic power, a superpower that technical people have that soon everybody will have.

And that I think overall is a great thing.

Um I think software engineers that really love that work, I think there will always be some aspect because someone's got to.

Design the next version, right? So like there's always going to be a small subset of people working on that.

But I think most software developers will need to go into a domains where their technical expertise is not at producing the.

Code itself.

>> Maybe you're great at software architecture.

Maybe you have a brilliant idea for a new game mechanic you want for your mobile game, right?

Like those are the types of domains that I think you have to go into.

You can't just remain you will not sit there like competing with this thing in code generation.

Like it's hard for me to believe that that will be your specialty that you'll beat it at.

>> Okay. So, we're going to become architects and the AI is going to be the code generation.

I mean, eventually, won't the AI be able to architect it?

They'll identify the problems, architect the solution, code a solution.

>>.

Yeah. >> I I mean, this is the opinion that I have that most of my friends don't agree with me on.

Is I feel like as the level of IQ of AI goes up, at some point it will displace so many jobs.

That it will become difficult for the average human to do something that capitalism would compensate them for.

Like you you need to add value in some way that people are willing to buy your service, right?

Um and I think as AI gets smarter and smarter,.

Um you know, people are going to have to invent new ways to add that sort of value.

We used to think with the Jetsons, right, that the robots would clean our houses while we did art and music, right?

And it t it it turned out that we are cleaning our own houses because the Roomba still can't vacuum worth anything,.

Right? But the robots are taking the the the music jobs.

They're taking the art jobs. They're doing these crazy videos like, right, all of the all of the stuff we thought we.

Would have free time to go do because Rosie was vacuuming the house or or or whatever is not happening.

It's going the other way, >> right?

And and so I do think that the tide is rising in a way that at some point most human jobs that.

Require intellect,.

You won't be able to beat a computer.

Price-wise or speedwise. >> Okay. When AI will take over software engineering.

Yeah, Bill Gates is famous for saying something to the effect of we always overestimate how quickly technology will revolutionize things in.

The next few years and we always underestimate how much it will in 10 years.

>> I think that'll happen here is most people are are calling shots like by 2026 it will be like ASI and.

It's going to launch nuclear war and all this stuff, right?

I think that honestly is probably a little bit too too um optimistic,.

But I think in the 10-year time frame, will it radically reshape what it means to be a worker in society?

>> I think it will.

>> Okay. Okay. So, by 2035,.

Our world's going to look very different.

>> I have no idea what the timeline is, right?

Um because a lot of other things can go nonlinear, right?

Once the code starts modifying itself, things can go like second order very quickly and things get weird.

So, I definitely don't want to make random predictions,.

But my intuition is that we are overenthused about some things that it can do, right?

But in the long run, we're too pessimistic about how quickly exponentials work.

>> True. True. And then I got to ask you, if um we have a lot of computer science students, software engineering.

Enthusiasts,.

Should they not pursue that degree anymore or what should they do to adapt?

>> Yeah, great question. What what else should they do?

>>.

Yeah. >> Right. Like cuz right now people are saying the obvious thing which is like oh you should go into plumbing.

Because like plumbing you know that's physical and it's services blah blah blah blah blah.

How long do you think a plumber is going to have their job?

You know what I mean? Like if if if you look at where the optimist is going where AI training can often.

Uh you now have robots that can catch like crazy balloon balls or or or whatever, right?

Um that is obviously increasing and improving at the same pace, right?

And so my question is like you can't just call this one job of software development and say like oh they're cooked.

We're going to have to go to you know you're going to have to become a fast order cook right um because.

I have a hard time imagining what other jobs >> you know get done.

I feel like the bigger thing we need to do is make sure that our society's rules that legislatively.

That we are anticipating this future and that we aren't going to leave a bunch of people with an inability to make.

Uh work for themselves. >> Yeah.

But I mean that's I guess one side of it.

The government needs to.

Uh intercept and ensure people have food on the table.

But if you were a student right now, what would you focus on?

>> Yeah, it depends how good of a computer scientist I am.

Both good relative to my peers as well as how much do I have a natural passion for it?

>>.

Yeah. >> Right. I would never counsel a person to become a professional pianist.

Yeah. >> Uh even though a very small number of people do make it as a professional, right?

And those people have the passion for it and they're willing to work 12 hours a day at piano to do it,.

Right? If you're that sort of computer scientist, you should absolutely stay in computer science because you will love it, right?

Um, if you're the type of person that doesn't need to be paid and you're still writing code, >> you should still.

Do it because the robot might code faster than you, but you love writing the code.

So, just do the thing. You're like an artist that paints, right?

Yeah. >> Um I think if you're the type of person that was a business major, but you went into computer science.

Cuz you saw all the dollar signs, you should get out cuz a person with a passion is going to out compete.

You. And if you didn't have the natural propensity toward it, you're never going to be as good as as someone who.

Sees the tide uh rising and is outrunning you, right?

So So I think that it depends a lot on your personal commitment,.

Your personal passion, and an objective look at how you do relative to your peers.

>> For sure. For sure. I think the passion and natural curiosity will drive so much more innovation and education.

Yes.

>> The passion of dollar signs.

>> Yeah. And if you take a look at America, one of the many reasons we're a great country, right, is that.

In America, you can be you can host the uh the world's largest ball of twine, you know, which is somewhere in.

Middle America, right? Um and you can make a living just running a museum shop that does that, right?

This this is the beauty of America, right?

Is like if you have a passion for something, you could definitely make a living doing it.

You just got to be sure that you love twine more than anybody else, right?

You're you're willing to do the twine, right?

So, I think that the most important thing is be excellent at the thing you choose to do and outexecute.

Other people in that domain. In America, you'll always have a job based on that.

>> Even after the AI takeover,.

>> I suspect we will invent things that people will value simply because a human produced them.

For instance, you could Spotify yourself the best string quartet for your wedding.

Like, you could Spotify and it'll play better than any string quartet you can afford to hire for your wedding.

People are still hiring string quartets.

Why? Because they love the fact that the Peruvian woman is hand.

Weaving this carpet, right? Like they they they like the idea that human sweat was behind something.

I think uh human labor will always be valued for the fact that it is human labor.

>> Yeah. I guess in a sense uh if you go to like New York City, right?

Obviously there are a lot of cars on the street, but then there are some people who.

They have like the little horse carriages and then they they they sit on them.

It's very very like spotty here and there in the city, but they're able to charge like $100 just to take it.

Across the street. Uh because people just value that like almost nostalgic.

Human experience.

>> Absolutely. Like um if you consider young people these days buying records again, right?

It's like why would you have a clearly inferior product that gets worse every time you play it?

Like um and the answer is because people have begun to see that perfection is one type of excellence.

But this idea of the physically tangible, this idea of the warmth of seeing the music actually spin and play is something.

That has a quality all its own.

Right. >> Yeah. I mean in that regard so we've dabbled on like what types are there anything within computer science you.

Think the human element is still necessary for >> I think there are many computer science jobs that don't focus on raw.

Code output right if you think about staged.

Um changes.

In a deployed system that upgrades you from one design to another that's a whole skill in itself like um how do.

You do >> sorry that one thing you break that down to our audience the god I think we got a young.

Audience Yeah. So, for instance, let's say you work at a company that has a large web service like Amazon, right?

Um, and you have code that's like 20 years old.

Um, if you have a new design for a new feature that you want to build, often times the question is, how.